John Deere 450c Injector Pump

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It COULD be a number of things, but Im betting you got the wrong pump. Try taking the throttle cable loose and moving the pump arm all the way opposite of where it is now and try restarting the machine. If this works and it goes to idle, then you have the wrong arm assembly on the pump.

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Flatheadyoungin
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 1:32 pm Post subject: STILL having injector pump problems 450C

I'm still having problems with getting diesel fuel in to the crankcase. Here's a timeline of what I have done/tried:
1. put new fuel pump on thinking it was bypassing the pump and feeding in to the block
2. still got fuel in crank case, pulled injector pump, put in new bushing and installed umbrella seals, when I put bronze bushing in, it went in VERY tight
3. I still got diesel in the crankcase, so I pulled the IJ pump, i had torn an umbrella seal when installing it...so I put new ones in again..they are right as far as I know, I've had it off and on many times now and kind of have it down pat
4. still got fuel in the crankcase, saw the mouse turds in my timing cover window...pulled IJ pump again, replaced govenor weight retaining ring and all new orings, everything from the soft kit...the bypass check valve was plugged up badly so this explained why it would start then die immediately and it also explain why the thing ran fine when i pulled the timing cover off and let it run while spewing fuel out (it relieved the pressure built up in the housing)
5. still getting fuel in the crankcase, I could see it escaping from the timing cover while running it the other day, more than just a drip drip
Possibilities??
a. I have the JDB manual and it suggested using epoxy to glue the bronze bushing in to place. it went in so tight that I didn't think there was anyway it would need to be glued and i didn't want to make it MORE difficult to remove it again if need be....however, when I had it all a part to replace the governor retaining ring, I noticed the bearing had moved slightly outward towards the engine side...I put it in a vise and gave it a good hit (thinking it would be just as hard to drive in as last time) and it went flush with the flange..I had to take the injector pump back apart to move the busing back where it's supposed to be..it moved quitely easily...should I glue it in place? what 'epoxy' should I use?
b. I cleaned everything really well, but from the checkvalve to the engine block, i didn't clean out that line....i'm gonna guess that the return/bypass line is clogged forcing fuel out the timing cover (even with a new seal), past the umbrella seals and/or past the bronze bushing that isn't glued?
what do you think? I need to work this thing! I've got to admit, I love this ole' thing and it sure makes quick work of briars and such on the property..and I've sure learned a HECK of a lot about this machine...I'm just ready to wrap up this part of trouble...

JDemaris
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: STILL having injector pump problems 450C

That pilot-tube (bushing) has to be glued in. I've always used Loctite sleeve retainer, but an good epoxy will do the job. Removing later is not an issue. All you have to do is heat it enough and the glue softens enough to press the bushing out.
I can't tell from here, but it's likely several things are going on. The not-glued bushing is letting some fuel by when the pump housing gets hot (maybe). Mabye one of those umbrella seals still isn't right (the one facing the pump). And, if your return line is partially plugged, it will make housing pressure inside the injection pump go way above the normal 6 PSI and force it's way past those seals - even if they are fine.
Most of the time, on Deere engines - when that plastic ring has failed, little pieces of plastic can get stuck up in fuel-return Ts on top of the injectors. You might want to check to be sure. If you ran it all with the housing-pressure-regulator removed (the ball and spring broken out of it) the Ts will surely be plugged.
You DID install a new housing-pressure-reguator valve, didn't you? It's the 'check-valve' that screws into the pump cover, hooked to a JIC male flare fiting and on to the return-fuel circuit.
Part # 15830 and costs around $4.

Flatheadyoungin
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: STILL having injector pump problems 450C

I'll tell ya, I feel like a stalker...
I've searched your name in google several different ways and read every thread I could find that you replied to regarding JDB pumps. While most info. on the JDB pump is scarce, your postings were/are a great help to many. Thank you!
Ok, I'll jerk it back off and glue in the busing.
The little ball valve in the check valve all seemed to be ok. I cleaned it with a fine little dental tool, used carb cleaner and light air pressure to clean it out. With the calibrated eyeball, it looked ok- but that doesn't mean anything with my untrained eyes...
My engine is pretty crudy up by the valve covers and where the injectors and little bypass T's go in to the head. So, I was afraid to go pulling on them for fear of getting dirt down int them. Will a burst of air..you know, now that I think back, I think I did hit the return line with a burst of compressed air. That may have just crammed all the junk in to a dam.
Long story short, I looked at my soft kit and for the life of me that replacement retaining ring wouldn't fit. So, I went in and ordered the EID and paid a little extra to ship it. Right after I ordered it, I went back out in to the garage and flipped a few more pages back in the service manual and it said something about stretching it with snap ring pliers or something. So, after I thought it would tear (tough material), I finally got it, put it all back together and fired it up. Two days later the EID came in the mail. I have it out there still.
I attached a link to my original thread.

JDemaris
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 5:22 am Post subject: Re: STILL having injector pump problems 450C

Did they actually send you the EID setup? I'm just curious since last time I ordered one, they send me a solid, all-metal drive instead. I used it in my Deere 300B and it works fine. Also nice because it's soft aluminum, and easy to scribe on the new timing mark. Stanadyne # 29111
But the EID is (or was) a two-piece setup with a bunch of little rubber shock aborbers in it. The 'EID' stands for 'elastomer insert drive.' It's what all the Chevy and Ford pickup truck diesels used after 1985 on the DB2 pumps.

Flatheadyoungin
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 5:45 am Post subject: Re: STILL having injector pump problems 450C
No, mine is all metal if I recall. I don't have it in front of me. I remember because I was wondering to myself how the world the word 'elasto' got in to there. Which loctite do you use? I was looking at their website just now and came back here to double check what you said.

Flatheadyoungin
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 5:47 am Post subject: Re: STILL having injector pump problems 450C
never mind, i see they actually make a 'sleeve retainer' formula..

JDemaris
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 5:51 am Post subject: Re: STILL having injector pump problems 450C

I'll have to go out and look in my shop. Loctite makes many versions of 'sleeve retainer.' It varies by the how loose the part is, and shear strength. In your situation, since it's still a fairly tight fit, any version of 'sleeve and bearing retainer' will work fine. It doesn't have to be Loctite brand either. I just mentioned it since it's common. Since you only need a little, you can probably buy it in a small tube at any auto parts store. Generally speaking, they make a product to keeps nuts and bolts from working loose, and also make a product for holding in bearings and sleeves. You want the latter.

Flatheadyoungin
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:21 am Post subject: Re: STILL having injector pump problems 450C

I have some blue and red but I'd say they'd be way too strong. I think I read where the stuff you are talking about is 300psi.
What are those little tubes in the bypass line that goes in to the head near the injectors? Do I need to pull them and blow them out too? If I blow through the line right where the check valve is, it'll just push the crud in to these little tubes near the injectors- and I'm assuming back in to the injectors...

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John Deere 450c Weight

Oh yeah, 414-I was thinking of a 544 or 544A..
Yep, if you've got a couple dead cylinders there's probably injectors that are stuck open & dumping raw fuel. Could be more serious problems, of course, but injectors is a good place to start. You could take them & have them tested, but if the tips are wet when you take them out, it's a safe bet they're bad, & for that kind of money just throw them away..those pencils are an amazingly good injector for what they are, but when they go bad, they're done. The raw fuel has washed the rings down, so I would expect it to take a while to clean up & quit smoking after you change out the injectors. You'll need to get it warmed up good & work it to reseat the rings. Not as easy on a loader, on a tractor you could put more of a constant load on it..just don't let it set around & idle.
Re-read your post & you say it won't start at all now? That's a little scary..injectors have to be really bad to get to that point. But still swap them out, & see what happens.